I've have read, "Our agenda begins: God, Family, Constitution, Country." Many if not MOST of the post that I read from the leadership stress the need to "come together under God", or "This country was founded as a Christian nation". So my question is this: Are patriotic, Constitution loving, Atheists such as myself, or persons of some other faith than Christianity welcomed or even wanted in OAS? I mean, if the plan is to turn OUR Constitutional Republic into a theocracy, than obviously, were not wanted. On the other hand, if the plan is to TRULY restore our Republic to it's Constitution, then I believe that all persons MUST be afforded the respect and protection implied by the religious freedom clause of the First Amendment. The USA has never been a "Christian Nation". That would make us a ChristianTHEOCRACY, much as Saudi Arabia is a Muslim theocracy. Arguments CAN be made that the USofA was created ON "Judeo-Christian" principals, but that in itself does not make us a "Christian nation". The crux of my concern is thus; Exclude non-Christians at the movement's peril. This warning should not be needed, it should be self evident, but alas it does not seem to obvious to many.
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Good answer. I know that we stand for the Constitution which is freedom of all religions and the same to non believers.
That means all are welcome as long as we respect each others faith. If we Christians talk of or Pray, we will not be attacked for that. We will be as respectful if you have no faith. We all have a choice as believers or non believers. That is God given, not man given.
If non believers stand for our Constitution, all of it, then we agree. We won't force our faith on you and you won't force your non belief on us. Agree to disagree, is the best way to handle. I would think. We do expect morals and values as a human being . Watching out for each other and our fellow Patriot's is a must.
Nothing Satanic would be go over very well. The OWS event was an insult to most people and would not fair well at OAS, I'm sure. We have never heard that this was Christian only, by anyone here. Responsibility for our selves and respect for others is important of course. We do a lot of good old common scene and the love for Freedom and liberty, for all men and women. With hard work and love for all fellow man. If you read the rules and can agree and follow, we should all be fine and get along well. We welcome anyone who is standing for the Constitutional Republic, and truly understands it's importance to Freedom and peace. If ypu don't understand the rules or need more clarity, then I would take it up with a top member, is my thought.
Hello Fred: I was on the same conf call with you and others on the Colorado Eastern Slope. I will try to tell you how and why I know this The Republic of the United States was begun by Christians and continued to spread that love and fear (respect) of God.
Most if not all of the original and later pilgrims were leaving their home countries and families to have a free country with freedom rights to worship The One True God.
My own grandmother's former generations that came here in mid-1600's were promised they (the Hugonots) would surely die at the hand of religious kings in France & England if they didn't get on the ships several years after Columbus sailed sooo long ago...
I don't have names of the unbelievers that probably were part of the running from religious abuse, but there were probably many from
the original foundation of this Country. One thing is clear knowing The
true History of this Nation, many Christians fought and died to get here, fought and died to live here, fought and died to give a better life for their families, who in turn settled the original 13 Colonies. (A site available to all who will search out our history is Wallbuilders.com)
There were many professing Christians in those Colonies, some non-
believers. Both entities were giving their all...many of each died.
Somewhere, I heard a Chaplain say to one denying Our Lord God's creation of all peoples, Christians and non-so called: "When there is a war being raged, many are in the bunkers, there are no Atheists." We
are all in the same 'bunker', in the same war for freedom and life. We will each have others' backs.
Fred, I listened closely to your concerns, Alex's response and at the end Wiley's response as Chaplain. I heard zero denying you as being
wanted or needed in our quest for restoration of our Nation lost, at present. You are welcome, come as you are. Are the Christians
going to deny your right to believe as you do? I would say just
hearing the hearts of these men and women, you are wanted. IF there
is prayer, it will be because we love That God Who is leading all this mandate. You are free to walk away, stay and hold your ideal. You
are given the same privilege of rights that Christians hold so dear.
I personally have many friends Christian, non-believers, many different
religions including Wicken, many born in the US, many new citizens
from many countries.
The Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, The Constitution were
written mainly by Christians under the watchful eye of Our God. Five
that signed were known Deists. THAT tells you a bit about their hearts.
Have you ever been in a gathering saying the Pledge of Allegiance:
please bear with me as I recount the final sentence: ..."one Nation
under God, indivisible(cannot be divided), with liberty and justice for ALL". These words give you the exact same privileges, rights, laws, room for your hope, your beliefs, your life as you desire to live it. Need I say anymore?
I bless my God for bringing yet another man to walk with us in this
effort. You matter to the ones I have spoken to, and yes, you matter
to me. kayloumartin
Hi again Fred: I wanted earlier to address some statements:The United States under God is not a theocracy. In fact He has been thrown out of our Nation, schools, marriages, even our churches. The United States was born and settled by Christians, unwanted in their own birth nations. Truly, with sorrow and sadness I say that our Nation is no longer a Christian nation as it was less than a hundred years ago. Hopefully, you will be more forbearing OF US than the leadership of the Federal government, our State governments, and even closer to home, our city officials. I hope you hear my heart. klm
Welcome Fred. One thing that being a Christian means to me is trusting in the One who gave us our inalienable rights, which I believe He gave not just to me, but to you and all mankind as well. And regardless of holding differing views on on what or who secures those rights for us, those inalienable rights and our citizenship in this once great (and hopefully again soon) country makes us countrymen and brothers of a sort. Good to have you aboard.
Well Fred it seems to me that you've received some pretty decent and good answers to your question. Now If I may please allow me to post my reply. I believe America was founded as a Christian Nation. Our laws and our Constitution were all based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. The one thing that those Christian beliefs have afforded Americans the most is a very simple set of standards in morality, (Thy shall not kill, Thy shall not steel) The simple things that we in America have grown and learned which are the things that have made America a free country. These are the things that have allowed us to live in peace without fear of oppression. The fundamental laws of Nature, and not the laws of kill-or-be-killed, dog eat dog.
Our Constitution demands freedom of Religion, And that means freedom for everyone, and yes - even for those who decide to be non-believers. It is simply a matter of choice. That standard of morality I spoke of also demands (along with the Constitution) that I (we) can not and will not force or pressure anyone to adopt or kneel down to our believes. Our Founding Fathers were indeed very well educated and knowledgeable men. They not only knew how to write and construct a great set of documents, but they also knew a great deal about world history. They knew that anytime any form of Government, or any form of religion became too powerful that those entities would become oppressive to the people. Whether it is Islam, or Christianity, all forms of Government or Religion can become oppressive.
So Yes Fred, Atheists and non-believer are welcome. And if and when we are able to restore America we will also restore those freedoms of Religion. And including the rights to be a non-believer,, to live without fear of oppression. It IS that Constitution that gives us that freedom and those rights.
Now Fred you have received your official answer from one of the administrators of this site and one of the founders of this OAS movement.
It means freedom of Religion. Period. The Constitution did not separate one religious belief from another. It does not say that Christians will be free while Islamist s or Hindus or Buddhists will not. It does not imply or say that those who choose to practice no specific religious worship at all will have any less freedom than others. It says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
We should read those words literally, and in accordance with the definitions of those words at the time they were written. "Congress Shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". This is the part many people today mistake as a separation of Church and State. But in truth there is no such separation of Church and State, there IS however a very strict ban on Government dictating that people must worship one religion over another. There IS a very strict ban on Government proclaiming BY-LAW that America is a Christian nation and that everyone must be a Christian. The law (Constitution says that all people are free to practice what ever religion they wish, or none at all if that is what they choose. It does not ban a Baptist minister from running for Congress or for President for that matter. It does not ban anyone from saying or claiming that America is a Christian nation. It only bans the Government from making it a law that this shall be a Christian nation. But it also bans anyone from demanding that others must worship one religion or another. In other words I can claim America is a Christian nation, but I cannot try to force you or anyone else to worship Christ. And I better not even try to pass a law that says this is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any other religious nation.
We are all free to worship as we please,, or not at all. And to do it without fear of persecution.
It is one of those things that has set America apart from the rest of the world for over 200 years. It is one of those things that makes America worth fighting for and our Constitution worth defending. It is one of those very special things that has made America the must unique nation to ever exist in human history.
Fred, you bring up a point that I am sure a lot of people are wondering, and you nailed it when you say Judeo-Christian Principals. You are welcome. While many (most) of the participants will be of one Christian persuasion or another it most certainly is not a requirement as are Patriotism and Constitution Loving. Respect for each other's beliefs are expected and necessary. I think that everyone agrees that we DO NOT want any kind of theocracy.
Bob, contrary to what you may have read, or some would have you believe, we have NO AGENDA, other than to peacefully remove the corrupt politicians, and to restore the Government to one that is bound by the Constitution. And that my friend will take ALL Patriots, no matter what their beliefs. It is true that many Patriots on this site are Christians, but it is not a requirement, or an exclusion. While my opinion of whether we are a Christian nation, or not, may differ from yours, We are ALL here for 1 purpose, to exact change in the way our current administration, and future administrations conduct business on our behalf. I will also say this, Just because something has been adjudicated in the past by our Govt., doesn't mean it will hold up under constitutional scrutiny, i.e. Obamacare was upheld by the some courts, doesn't mean it won't be wiped off the books in the future, by a new Govt.
Bob- could you elaborate a little on your reasoning? How does it apply to restoring the constitution? The government sanctioning something, as they have done with the laws you are talking about, does not force us to approve of it from a belief standpoint. I believe that one of the fundamental principals justifying the need for protection from government trying to interfere with or right to freely practice our religion is that the government cannot force a belief on it's citizens. In either a theocracy or in a secular dictatorship, such unjust interference in peoples lives produces the same results-oppression and injustice on a grand scale, resulting in genocide and eventually the collapse of the society.
Bob, The "Movement" is not going to change any laws, that will be up to the NEW government, but then, only the laws that they are allowed by the Constitution, the rest will be left up to the States, which is the way our founders set this government up, and ultimately decided by We The People, which is the way it was intended to be from the beginning.
My thoughts on that:
1) Marriage is a mostly RELIGIOUS institution and as such, Government should have NO say in it's definition. Nor should Government award or withhold benefits and rights based on a persons marital status (religious beliefs).
2) Religious expression in public should be governed by good taste and respect, hence my concerns. Too many people feel the need for public displays or religion, these same people generally have absolutely no tolerance for other beliefs or a lack thereof, leading to a situation RIPE for tyranny.
I can see here very easily where this thread and discussion can lead to us all getting off track from the purpose of this site and the mission of the OAS. Although it is very interesting, and it is probably a necessary line of discussion. It is none the less off track and distracting from our objectives.
There are several Internet site that i could suggest for those who wish to learn more on these subjects.
http://constitutionus.com/ The Constitution
http://www.heritage.org/,,,,, The Constitution.
And while we are all looking these up and learning, I would like to suggest that we should all learn the difference between a Democracy and a Republic.
What is the difference between a Republic and a FREE Constitutional Republic?